Dagger in hand

A man of prodigious fortune, coming to add his opinion to some light discussion that was going on casually at his table, began precisely thus: "It can only be a liar or an ignoramus who will say otherwise than," and so on. Pursue that philosophical point, dagger in hand.

--Michel de Montaigne, Of the art of discussion.



Stab back: cmnewman99-at-yahoo.com


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Thursday, May 26, 2005
 
The 18 things you can't say about Muslims in Italy.
Thanks to Ilario Vige, my indefatigable source of Oriana intel, I now have a pdf copy of an article from the Italian newspaper Libero, which reproduces the text of the complaint filed against Fallaci. How’s that for social capital in the internet age? (Ah, Prof. Putnam, there are more things in heaven and earth…) I don’t have time now to try to translate all of it, but eventually I hope to obtain copies of the cited code provisions so as to be in a position to understand the way the legal issues are being framed. What I can do for now is list the 18 “incriminating sentences.” As I had guessed, a few of the offending passages are from the section I translated earlier. Many of them are mere snippets taken from longer contexts. For now I will present them only as they appear in the complaint (at least as cited in the article), ellipses and all. If there is reason to do so later I can provide more of the context for each.

1) during the occupation of Montecassino in the 9th century “the Muslims amused themselves by sacrificing each night the virginity of a nun. Do you know where? On the altar of the cathedral.”

2) while occupying Constantinople in 1453, the Turks led by Mohammed II “decapitated even newborns. And extinguished candles with their little heads.”

3) “In a woman the Koran sees above all a womb to give birth.”

4) “In the dream that the sons of Allah have been nurturing for years, the dream of blowing up Giotto’s Tower or the Tower of Pisa or the cupola of St. Peter’s or the Eiffel Tower or Westminster Abbey or the cathedral of Cologne and so on . . .”

5) “…halal butchery is barbarous” just as “shechita butchery is barbarous. That is, the Jewish version which is carried out in the same way and consists of slitting the animals’ throats without dazing them.”

6) France is a country “where Islamic racism, that is the hatred of the infidel-dogs, reigns supreme and is never put on trial, never punished. Where the Muslims declare openly: “We must take advantage of the democratic space that France offers us, we must exploit democracy, that is, make use of it to occupy territory.” Where not a few of them add: “In Europe the Nazi position was not understood. Or not by all. It was judged a vehicle of homicidal folly, when actually Hitler was a great man.”

7) for Muslims “biology is a shameless science because it is occupied with the human body and sex.”

8) “ . . . we will have to resign ourselves to the yoke of a creed that . . . instead of love spreads hatred and instead of liberty slavery.”

9) “a Right and a Left . . . that (in Italy) are both on the side of the enemy (Islam).”

10) the demands of the Islamics with regard to school curricula mean that in literature classes “we will not be allowed to include for example The Divine Comedy . . .nor the Canticle of Creatures nor the Sacred Hymns of Alessandra Manzoni . . .” etc. etc.

11) “ . . . the uncouth wailing of the muezzin . . .”

12) the terrorist attacks of the last twenty years have caused six thousand deaths “to the glory of the Koran. In obedience to its verses.”

13) “Our Jesus of Nazareth . . . they put him in their Danna where he eats like Trimalchio, drinks like a drunkard, screws like a sexual maniac.”

14) “. . . the revolting, reactionary, obtuse, feudal Right is found today only in Islam. It is Islam.”

15) infibulation is “the mutilation that the Muslims force on little girls to prevent them, once they are grown . . . from enjoying the sexual act. It is a female castration that the Muslims practice in twenty-eight countries of Islamic Africa and because of which two million persons die each year from sepsis or loss of blood . . .”

16) the Italians afflicted by atavistic loss of pride “are not offended when Islamic immigrants urinate on their monuments or soil the sacristies of their churches or toss their crucifixes out the window of a hospital.”

17) “. . . Islam is a pond. And a pond is a trough of stagnant water. . . it is never purified . . . it is easily polluted, like a watering hole for livestock of little value. The pond does not love life: It loves death . . .”

18) “ . . .despite the massacres through which the sons of Allah have bloodied us and bloodied themselves for over thirty years, the war that Islam has declared against the West . . . is a cultural war. . .they kill us in order to bend us. To intimidate us . . . Their goal is not to fill cemeteries. Not to destroy our skyscrapers . . . It is to destroy our soul, our ideas. Our feelings and our dreams. It is to subjugate the West once again.”
UPDATE: As you can see, Oriana doesn't really live up to her claim that this time around she is appealing solely to the power of reason and putting aside her rage and pride. This was my main disappointment with the book when I read it. She does cite a lot of facts in support of her attacks on Islam, and as you can see several of the 18 sentences are simply historical assertions. She doesn't provide any footnotes or sources for any of her facts though (no doubt Muslim historians paint things differently), and it is undeniable that the overall tone of her book is one of visceral revulsion for Muslims, not just rationally alarmed criticism of certain political and cultural developments in Europe. This is unfortunate, because her book does raise a lot of genuinely alarming and important issues, and I think this time around her haranguing jeremiads, bracing and delightfully trenchant though they can be (particularly when directed at various politicians and organizations), actually wind up detracting from the message. They surely detract from the chances of persuading anyone not on her side already, or even of getting them to give her an open-minded hearing. They also make it easy to understand why a Muslim who does not wish to blow up the Eiffel Tower or conquer the West would rightly feel that he was being stereotyped and hatred being fomented against him. On the other hand, plenty of people like the ones Fallaci describes assuredly exist, and the gap will not be bridged by pretending it isn't there. None of my criticism, of course, changes my view that in a free society this sort of expression ought to be beyond the reach of legal sanctions.

UPDATE 2: David Harbottle has another translation of these items here, except that the source he was looking at lists a few of them differently. I have no idea why that is.


Comments:
Light a candle for Ms. Fallaci. She tells it like it is. It is very rare to find a person such as her. Long may she continue to speak.
 
I didn't like her equation of Islamic and Hebraic orthodox slaughter methods. I am not qualified to have an opinion on Islamic techniques other than if it is like how they killed Eric Berg, it is definitely not kosher. However, shechita, as she calls it, is designed specifically to minimize suffering for the animal.

I don't know upon what grounds she makes this remark. But perhaps a bit of innocent ignorance is excuse enough? It seems like a clever throwaway European thing to say. But I suppose one must allow WWII veterans (?! wow, how old is she?) some leeway.
 
Point is, even if it is an anti-Muslim screed, she should be allowed to say it. After all, Muslims say a lot worse about the rest of us.
 
She is clearly a dangerous thought criminal and therefore must be punished. She must be placed in a re-education camp, for her own good and for the good of society, lest these these dangerous thoughts be contagious. Nothing less than the mental hygeine of society is at stake. For, if people begin to believe that they can think just anything, what will happen to the power of the state to enforce right-thinking?
 
I'm guessing Ms Fallaci is a woman of Italian descent... In her response to the 9/11 atrocites, and the European Muslim response in favor of the attack, she basically pitches a fit... instead of "appealing solely to the power of reason"... My point is that if an Italian woman cannot pitch a fit IN ITALY without breaking a series of laws, the world has become a crazy place....
 
I'm guessing Ms Fallaci is a woman of Italian descent... In her response to the 9/11 atrocites, and the European Muslim response in favor of the attack, she basically pitches a fit... instead of "appealing solely to the power of reason"... My point is that if an Italian woman cannot pitch a fit IN ITALY without breaking a series of laws, the world has become a crazy place....
 
Some other commenters over on LGF are also contesting Oriana's equation of halal with shechita. This is precisely why her book leaves me uneasy--while I don't doubt she is identifying real phenomena, her evidence is far too anecdotal and undocumented to support the sweeping generality of some of her rhetoric. Big principles matter, but details and distinctions matter too.

In response to one of the comments above, Fallaci was only a child during WWII, but apparently she played a role in the Italian resistance. THe last novel she was working on--and which she abandoned to wade into this present battle after 9/11--was supposed to deal with her experiences during that period. May she live to finish it.
 
Here's a news account:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=789030

Is this the familiar European death wish in action or is there more here than meets the eye? Is anything known about the judge?
 
"...Oriana's equation of halal with shechita. This is precisely why her book leaves me uneasy--while I don't doubt she is identifying real phenomena, her evidence is far too anecdotal and undocumented to support the sweeping generality of some of her rhetoric."

You mean to say that if we start examining some of the doctrines and practices of Islam we might also start investigating exactly what it is other religions do behind closed doors and under cover of a foreign language? For instance... hmmm, I don't know, another religion like Judaism perchance? :)

Of course, the sweeping generalizations of such crimethink is of course, highly anecdotal and not to mention, double plus ungood.
 
I too am always amazed at how so many otherwise intelligent and sensitive Europeans never miss an opportunity to take a pot shot at the Jews no matter what they criticize or critique. Shchitah is the most painless form of slaughter possible. It is far less painful that "dazing" an animal by shooting it in the forehead with a bolt or administering a jolt of electricity or just plain shooting is, all methods used in non-kosher butchery. Enough with the Delenda est Judea.
 
Yes, obviously slitting your throat is much more humane than a shot to the head. Which is why if ever I were to commit suicide, I would ignore the painful gun option and copy thousands of others by slitting my own throat or getting a buddy to do it.
 
Sad to see this deteriorate into charges and counter charges of anti-semitism. Anyway, her language is provocative in the extreme, but it should not be illegal. Muslims are going to have to reconcile themselves to liberty. That means that some idiots will trash their religion in the same way, for example, that the singer Madonna trashed Catholicism. So what? If Italian courts punish Falacci for this they are punishing civilization.
 
I read the book a few years ago, and liked it.

It's essentially a long opinion piece .. and doesn't she have some rights to her opinion .. ?

Also, she makes assessments on things which she's personally witnessed ... like Muslims urinating on Renaissance artifacts (which she talks about seeing, amone other things in the book.)
 
OK, so one person in Europe understands that Europe is being flushed down the Islamic toilet. Now if only the other 250 milion would begin to understand ...
 
I have been an admirer of Fallaci since the 1950's when I started reading her columns. Yes, she is Italian, having fought as a teenager in the resistance. Yes, she has a sharp tongue, but that's part of the fun of reading her writings. Her book is a welcome reaction to the current PC of not saying anything bad about Moslems. They certainly have committed their share of attrocities and desecrations through their history. I have heard several such stories from first hand witnesses, relatives who had to flee a Moslem country during an ethnic cleansing. Fallaci's list is far from comprehensive. I could have added several items but I do not want the Italian courts coming after me!
 
The terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam reveals that symbolism resonates in the Muslim mind. They targeted the World Trade Center as a symbol of American economic power and the Pentagon as a symbol of American military power.

There is little doubt that the next target of Islamist terrorism on American soil will also have symbolic meaning. So we should communicate with these people in a language they understand, that of symbolism. If the next terrorist act on American soil even approaches the magnitude of 9/11, America should destroy Mecca (after giving sufficient notice to enable evacuation).

Muslims believe that Islam is the only true religion, and that all non-Muslims are infidels. But if American infidels can destroy Islam's holiest city without Allah's intercession, Islam will be exposed as a fraud.
 
Someday people will realize that all radical Muslims, and most of the other Muslims that I've met and spoken with, simply despise non-Muslims.

It's how Muslims are taught. Their innate sense of utter moral superiority overrides all else and renders them immune to such Western perversion as logic and reason. Tolerance and understanding are, of course, not in their vocabulary. Basically the mind set of most of hte Muslims I've heard of or met are firmly entrenched in the 14th century.

Im my personal opinion, any organization whose primary manual encourages the murder of non-believers is not a religion, it is (at best) a cult and it adherants should be treated as such. The Quran is such a book and contains no less than 19 separate passages REQURING its followers to kill non-believers. And people still call this a "religion"?? Incredible!
 
We see authors in Italy being jailed for their opinions, French lawmakers banning personal articles of religious faith from being worn in public, Russia limiting the freedom of the press and Amnesty International has the NERVE to label the United States the great violator of human rights?

It's clear that Amnesty International has gone over to the Dark Side, joining the United Nations as an instrument of America-and-Bush Haters.
 
Back to Oriana, you can quibble about her choice of language but what she's pointing out can't be denied. Somebody give her US Citizenship quick. Me, I'm in no mood to cater to 12th century idiots and their stupid butthole religion.
Now our own pc gestapo would bust me for saying that if they could. But the 2nd Amendment is the teeth of the 1st, if you catch my drift
 
In response to Doreen: Fallaci is about as far from Delenda est Judea as you can get, as you'll see if you read all of the preceding post. If she's wrong about shechita (something I know nothing about, not being Jewish) it's out of sloppiness on her part, not malice. In the full passage (also below) she actually says that she is "sorry to say" what she does about shechita. Which, again, makes me worry that if she's getting facts wrong about a group she is sympathetic to, her evidence against a group she clearly loathes needs more rigorous documentation than she provides.

In response to rational islamophobe, I think you're drawing the wrong implication from my words. I have no problem with investigating and documenting what goes on behind the closed doors of any religion. The problem I see here is that we are talking about millions of people, and Fallaci isn't making any serious effort to figure out whether there may be different things going on behind different sets of doors. Her excoriation of those Muslims who are Taliban wannabes is justified, no question. As is her excoriation of Western politicians who don't grasp that liberal civilization depends on protecting certain key principles regardless of whether they contradict the beliefs of certain religious groups within the society. What I'm not convinced by is her assumption that essentially all European Muslims are Taliban wannabes who want to destroy Western civilization. It seems to me that condemnation of the Taliban types needs to be combined with an effort to identify and make common cause with those Muslims who don't want to be mired in the 7th century. If there truly aren't any, then this will fail. But I don't believe that to be the case, she hasn't proven that to be the case, and assuming it to be the case may be a self-fulfilling prophecy if it teaches such Muslims that the West rejects them categorically.
 
In response to the last anonymous comment: Fallaci has a green card and lives largely in New York. According to what she says in The Rage and the Pride, a senator once offered to help her get U.S. citizenship. She declined, out of a sense of Italian patriotism.
 
Like, don't like ... offended, amused ... angry, satiated: who cares? Say whatever you like however you like to say it whenever you want to ... opinions should never be illegal. My heart weeps for Europe. Europeans need to stand up now and stand for something higher than statism, otherwise it'll be the 1930's all over again.
 
If they're threatening to put her in jail for her opinions, she'd qualify for poliitical asylum here in the US, wouldn't she? A public offer of asylum might embarrass the heck out of the Italian judiciary.
 
I haven't read Ms. Fallaci's book, but having studied Islam, I can assert that most of her charges can be validated both in terms of the teachings of the religion and the practice of many of its followers. Yes, her words sound like an emotional rant, but it is a rant firmly grounded in reality.
 
Chamberlain's The Bad Popes opens with the shipborn muslim sack of St.Peter's Papal district outside the walls of Rome in 846. (St. Peters was unwalled because it had been untroubled by the western barbarians in the four centuries of chaos that folowed the Roman decline.) The raiders looted the treasures of the site, desecrated the grave of Peter, slaughtered, and took slaves before being driven off by an enraged populace.
The purpose of Jihadis, then and now, is to destroy all symbols and ideas snd ,especially, their materializations which are not subordinated to Islam and to destroy or subject all people who are not subordinated to Islam. As interpretations of Islam vary, this also provides them with the excuse to kill and subject each other and destroy their own symbolic structures.
The first Saudi/Wahabi state raided the Shia holy sites. As soon as it was strong enough, it sacked MECCA! Current Wahabi preachers are STILL calling the faithful to kill or enslave anyone who disagrees with them.
The only reason that there are not slave raids in Italy TODAY from "saracens" is that the correlation of forces limits operations to terrorism and infiltration.
If Europeans don't wake up, I expect that we will see reports of "kidnappings" and "coerced conversions" dribeling out through their reluctant and fearful press sometime during my lifetime. Slave raiding will return to Europe. Multi Cultis will cheer it on as a broadening experience and justice for all the peoples enslaved and slaughtered by Europe.
The leftists tactically allied with the Jihadis in the campaign to destroy western civilization are idiots. The slavery and tyranny which are islamic norms would reduce us to barbarism again.
Then ALL the graves upon which western civilization is built would be desecrated.
Islamists will not mourn our civilization if they destroy it; they will not mourn the civilizations that we destroyed and mourn; the misery and toil on which our civilization was built will have been squandered as if it never existed.
While our world will surely be one with Niveha and Tyre, there is no need for us to hurry into the grave. Jonah called on the city to put on sackcloth and ashes, not to slit its own throat. Western Civ is already wearing sackcloth and ashes for the very slavery which it interupted. We need not expose our throats to Islam in contrition for our sin.
But in Europe, as Fallici is discovering, that may happen.
 
Side note: Most suicides are wrist-slitters. It is considered the most painless form of suicide.
 
http://ideazione.blogspot.com/2005/05/orianagate3.html
 
I believe that some comments here should distinguish between the religion and its implementation.

Humans are good and bad, and thus abusing even religions as a tool to empower one or the other side [i.e. to separate instead of unite].

That said, there are henceforth good Christians [who will ask Christ to let other believers into Paradise, too], Jews [who will make a little space for others in their "chosen" ranks] and Muslims [who will give up any pride in their fact that Islam is the last god-given religion by a prophet].

People trying to separate into "good and bad", in word, deed, or mere thought, shall be granted more enlightenment in this matter for the benefit of all beings.
Thanks God not ALL Christians, Jews or Muslims are as single-minded or ignorant as the ones described here.

God blessed us all,

EnjoyLife&ShareIt,

Marcus M Sommer
 
Some day people will grow up and see Islam for what it really is: a cult of hatred, violence and death. Some day those who now fight against it will be praised and honored along with those who had fought the Nazis. Some day Ms. Fallaci will be hailed as a corageous person who spoke the truth in spite of prosecution and ridicule... I can only hope that this day is fast approaching.
 
http://www.shechitauk.org/faqs.php
"The chalaf (the surgically sharp instrument used) incises the structures at the neck of an animal."

This is apparently painless. Sounds counterintuitive doesnt it? Given the choice, I dont think I'd choose having my neck slashed as the way to go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal
"There is a Halaal method of slaughtering animals, by cutting through the large arteries in the neck"


Gosh, which superstition's barbaric slaughter method is the 'good' one? It's so confusing...

(NB: of course, the real point of the blog post is to highlight the freedom of speech issue, but I think it's funny how some people immediately jumped on the supposedly unfair equating of two substantively identical animal killing methods)
 
Only Sith deal in absolutes.
 
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